You heard it here first folks! This is my official prediction for the first expansion to Warhammer Online. We'll get a third realm, complete with playable Skaven, Lizardmen and Undead classes. This will only come via expansion and not in content updates, since it will take alot of development to create all the new starting areas and to work them into the current tiering system in some reasonable way. I also suspect that we'll hear Mythic's pitch on the expansion some time around...let's say...November 13th ?Yes, I know that everything has been designed for two realms and that it will be difficult to put in a third realm. It would change alot of the dynamics of the game as it stands right now, and might be risky to do given the scope of the changes needed to make it happen. While it may not be probable, its not impossible. We could very well see changes like this to help with the current lopsided destruction favoritism currently in the game.
I believe it makes sense to have a third realm for many of reasons, and these classes fit in it very well. Lizardmen , Skaven and Undead (Tomb Kings and/or Vampire Counts ) are all the dark and hidden underbelly type of races that fit well together. They are all relatively underground, unseen by the forces dwelling the topside. The new races support a variety of classes already, so they fit nicely...its just figuring out how to make everything work in a DAoC like 3 realm world that might just prove to be the problem.
So, am I out of my mind? Someone stop me and tell me why this can't be done. Is there a limitation from the lore? Something in the current game design that makes a third realm impossible? How else could we see these races represented?
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blog comments powered by DisqusI started reading your blogg after watching alot of your videos on youtube on warhammer online and thought now is the time to write a comment in your blogg, anyway, on to the topic.
Lizardmen is a race that stands alone, they don´t want help and they don´t help others, and that´s why i think they won´t be in warhammer online for a long time.
Vampire Counts Wouldn´t fight on the side with Skaven sence they are an enemy to them, and they would never be allys, Tomb Kings could occasionally be a more suggested ally for Skaven.
I belive more in Vampire counts vs Brettonia tier, sence they often fight each other and also hate eachother.
However Skaven would fit in well with chaos & orcs/goblin sence they are common allys. But then the question is, were do they put the vampire counts and tomb kings aka ''undead''?
I don´t really know if they really want a third realm? do they want it to be more like DAoC?
Lots of speculations, i guess we just have to wait and see.
I still think it'll be Ogres, which by lore could be used by both sides.
Lizard men would never ally with skaven or the Vamp princes
If we were to add a third real I would have to say either Bretonnians/Vampire Counts or Beastmen/Wood Elves.
I am with Ixeon about the Lizardman. The Lizardman really don't play well with others no matter who they are.
The Bretonnians and the Vampire Counts is on of the best story lines in the Warhammer lore. I am also a bit partial to the Brets as they were my very first army I bought and played back when I was a youngling.
The Wood Elves is hard to choose because they are naturally a neutral army,they will shoot anyone that steps foot in their forest unwelcomed. But I really love the look of the Wood Elves, and it is one of the most popular armies in the table top game as well so you could get alot more people playing that way too.
Just my thoughts. Keep blogging man, been coming here for awhile to stay upto date in all things WAR.
It is never going to happen.
1. I am too lazy to look it up but I seem to remember someone at Mythic saying that they had no plans for a third realm since it is too difficult to balance.
2. It will not help the population imbalance. If the two low pop sides consistently teamed up against the high pop side it could but it will never consistently happen. People do what they feel like doing and they most often feel like doing the easiest thing which will be to make a temporary alliance with the big guy. Both little guys will try to get on the big guy's good side and the big guy will make the decision as to who gets the short stick today.
Three realms doesn't create balance, it simply make balance theoretically possible to just happen but impossible to actively create. If Order is coming up short, we don't need a third side, that might or might not help them, we need to add something to order to make them cooler or what ever is needed to get some folks over their. Lizard men on the order side? They have fought Chaos in the ancient past before and this is "The Age of Reckoning."
3. The structure of the game is obviously geared, from beginning to end, for two sides. Yes it could be changed, but if that was ever their plan why not set yourself up to head that direction. The maps are laid out very artificially for too support two sides. There is nothing realistic or organic about them. You can't even travel by foot or mount between pairings. They clearly threw realistic out the window in order to create something well suited for two sides. That tell me that they designers decided at some point to go with a two sided war for better or worse.
4. Neither in history nor in games do you ever see three sides on a battle field. Alliances form and are betrayed at lightning speed and politically you may have 3 or more competing nations but when it comes to a fight, someone always either ally's with one side or the other or they play the waiting game and hit their now weakened enemy. My point is that two sides is more realistic in game terms.
Battle makes a great game but politics, not so much.
Also, I think they were going for the epic WWI and WWII thing. Two big sides consisting of several allies. Epic, world encompassing, struggle for survival. Sure the Dwarves hold some ancient grudges against the High Elves but they set that aside for now because it has come down to survival. Chaos is sure that the Dark Elves are scheming against them but right now they need them.
5. Skaven and Lizardmen wont be on the same side. Even Skaven allied with the Vampires is more likely then with the Lizardmen. I can definitely see Vampire Counts as the most likely pairing to go again Bretonnia. Lizardmen on the order side going against Skaven on the destruction side? Bit of a lore stretch but I could see it happen, especially if the market research turns out showing a good boost to Order numbers coming from it.
6. I think the path for expanding the game was designed and intended to be simply adding more racial pairings. It is simple. It doesn't create virtually unusable content. (Moment of silence for tiers 1-3 in WoW) It is easy to add new pairing maps. And there is lots of lore to draw from to do it.
7. Mythic has gone though the pain of screwing up a game before. Remember Atlantis? (Shiver) If this game is successful, and I think it already is and will only become more so, I don't think they will take the gamble on such a fundamental and potentially disastrous change. From a business perspective, better to play it safe and stash your cash. If they try three sides ever again, it will be in a separate MMO, something isolated and safe to experiment in.
First let me say, i love your stuff, and then.. EPIC FAIL... Lizardmen's racial pairing would be with Skaven if they were both added as races, i think its more likely they become the 4th races if they become anything, i can see Skaven joining destruction and Lizardmen would join Order if they thought it was what the old gods wanted etc. personally i belive that Lizardmen are fundamentally good anyway. the game's lore is such a huge obstacle that Mythic cannot overcome. Basically Lizardmen HATE Skaven, not to mention they aren't too fond of undead. lastly having a third realm will never happen, Mythic would have to recreate the WHOLE game to do it.
If an expansion came out and Order were given another race of elves or humans, I would uninstall on the spot. The game's already lopsided enough with all the cool stuff on one side. More elves? More humans? (French this time instead of German... TOTALLY DIFFERENT!) It would be an insult.
I like your idea of a third faction instead of a new pairing, though.
Lizardmen and Skaven are kind of sworn enemies.... Just thought I'd point that out. Lizardmen will not be teaming with the Skaven any time soon.
If you guys have made a lvl 1 Chaos you get a Quest from a skaven in the Tome when you go in to kill some Wraith's (Bad speller)
and there are skavens running around in Altdorf's sewer's
So my bet will be Skavens for the Destruction.
For Order, as many of you have pointed out Lizardmen is the sworn enemy of them i could se them teaming up with Order.
that would maybe make a bit of a difference for the inbalance for Order and destruction.
I play Destruction, but if Lizardmen comes in to play, i could se myself switching side.
Well depending how Mythic will make them.
And i think aswell that we will get the 4 careers that was intended to be in the Release.
Greenskin - choppa.
Empire - knights of the blazing sun.
Dwarf - dwarfs hammerer.
Darkelf - Black Guard.
well that my 2 cents.
ill echo what everyone else has said lizardmen would be difficult lore wise to fit in as they dont really ally, skaven could have been paired against dwarves but theyve already got greenskins so not sure i think theyll end up ing ame though as there very popular.
Also agree vampire counts vs bretonnia would be the most likley bet as it fits lore wise i also think wood elves could be a bet as well possibly vs beastmen
Yeah i support the notion that if we get more races/classes it will be added to the current two sides, order and destruction not a 3rd realm that wont happen atleast i both hope not as i really wouldnt like that makes balancing a real tough cookie (in theory might be easier but in praksis not so much) at the moment if 1 side on 1 server is way out top you can add a bonus to the lower side, doing that with 3 sides will be much harder.
though it could be done, if the races that are added are some underground / undeads or whatnot they could burrow up from the ground and that would shift alot of locations "High elves moved their camp at XXX to be at a better tactical location to counter the new attacks by YYY" copy/paste for every warcamp we got and wupti do all new rvr layout.
I dont see it happening but i wouldnt say impossible.
No Ogre love?
While I would love to see a third realm added and wish they would have designed the game this way from the start, I don't think we'll see a third realm added to WAR... ever.
Bjorn listed many good reasons above me, and even you addressed the difficulty (nay impossibility) to do it without completely changing the core game functions.
I'll add another in that launching with three realms gives you a way better opportunity for population balance but adding a third realm a year or two down the road will fark population balance even more.
Trust me... I wish there were three realms in WAR, but at this stage, I just can't see it happening.
Maybe in their next MMO...
This topic has me thinking, and it's actually rather a complex matter. See I like the idea of a new realm with races that generally hate everything else, or have really self minded goals, like Skaven and Vampire Counts. However, this may cause unbalance issues, especially with people swarming the new races in the excitement of the new expansion. And then, like you mentioned, you'd have to alter lands so that the 3 can co-exist.
On the other hand, you could add new races to the existing realms which are sworn enemies, such as Order getting Wood Elfs and Destruction getting Beastmen as many have already pointed out. This however would leave many races out of the picture, such as the popular Skaven, who are hard to pair with and against anything (especially with anything not already taken).
An idea I had was prehaps creating a Dogs of War realm that has a spot on each faction. By having a mercenary army that works for both it would allow Mythic to add in a number of races (by career) that may not work otherwise, such as Ogres and Skaven, while also adding in some races that only exist in the Dogs of War army list (tabletop) without lore being an issue. I guess the structure of it would be that some race-career combos are reserved to one faction alone (For example, Halfling careers are just for Order), while also having some that can be used by both. It would certainly add a unique dynamic to the game!
Well, there are some very good comments here. I don't have anything more to add other then, I played Lizardmen in the tabletop game and I am really excited about possibly seeing them in WAR. I think Lizardmen are the best WAR race! :D
One thing I wonder, is if they add a lizardmen race, will they include both small lizardmen (the skink type) and big ones? That would be cool... almost an orc and goblin kind of thing. I know I would be happy playing either type of lizardmen tho. :D
Lizardmen are not evil, they would not fight with undead and skaven
Brettonia and undead or skaven would make sense but not as a new realm.
But i think Brettonia would be too boring(boring Knights and Archers) no one would like to play them and we would face the same population problems as today.
Perhaps wood elves could help when they get something like dryrds etc
As said before, Lizardmen and Skaven are arch enemies.
However i do remember the High Elves allying with the Lizardmen to fight Skaven, from some region of Warhammer Lore.
They are on record (German convention interview) saying the first expansion will include Skaven thus the question is, paired with whom? My guess would be Bretonians because they fit best into the current structure. But Lizardmen and Undead (along with the Empire and almost everyone else) are mortal enemies of the Skaven with a history of major conflicts and therefore would make appropriate rivals. Bretonians would be the best fit to join the forces of Order, Lizardmen and Undead would not really work.
here's my opinion
first off there's a problem with bretonnia being a race: bretonnia as of now is an in-game Empire controlled ZONE.
I agree with everyone else who said there won't be a third team and everything's in teams of two.
My personal opinion is that if Lizardmen enter the game, they'll enter as Order, with Skaven to counterbalance them (long history of constant feuds)
in the actual warhammer fantasy game, it is true the lizardmen consider themselves above all others,
but they have allied with the elves before
and the only race the lizardmen show an ounce of respect to is high elf spellcasters.
As for the Skaven, if you look, theres an article on the internet that gives an exact quote from a producer (i think IGN is the site) that says Skaven are the first in line race for an expansion. So Skaven and Lizardmen are the most likely
Now, I think Wood Elves VS. Beasts is another realistic expansion.
The only problem here is that currently the Hordes of Chaos tabletop army has been made into an army simply called Chaos in WAR.
So the problem would be establishing the Beasts as a seperate race, despite the many similarities between the two Chaos races.
Please keep commenting and keep this thing going
oh yeah last minute thought based on what this guy a couple above me said ^^^
Bretonnia is basivcally just knights. they have poor and few regular infantry and archers.
so having Bretonnia as a race would be complicated, because at least two of three of the careers would require mounts.
and cow nose ^^^
yes if they added lizardmen im guessing it owuld be skinks and actual lizardmen
most definately not Slann though (too powerful).
My guess is Standard Lizardmen for the first
Then a skink priest and a third misc. career
probably an ambuhser like on the tabletop game
will be long range dps/stealth class
focus on poison blow darts and throwing javelins and hidden movement and such
I was browsing the net on the subject of the first expansion, reading through everyone's comments on this page, and found Drax's comment very intriguing indeed. Drax said: "An idea I had was prehaps creating a Dogs of War realm that has a spot on each faction. By having a mercenary army that works for both it would allow Mythic to add in a number of races (by career) that may not work otherwise, such as Ogres and Skaven, while also adding in some races that only exist in the Dogs of War army list (tabletop) without lore being an issue. I guess the structure of it would be that some race-career combos are reserved to one faction alone (For example, Halfling careers are just for Order), while also having some that can be used by both. It would certainly add a unique dynamic to the game!"
Basically, what I understand from that quote is in the first expansion, Mythic might introduce the Skaven as mercenaries. Both Order and Destruction will be able to play as the Skaven, but each faction will have access to different classes. For example the Order Skaven healer will be called the "Good Rat Healer" and will have abilities more focused on buffs, and the Destruction Skaven healer will be called the "Evil Rat Healer" with abilities that debuff (just throwing stupid ideas out there, that's certainly not how the expansion is going to be). The Skaven will act as a "Race for hire," like mercenaries. This way, both Order and Destruction get to take advantage of the new race.
I think that's a pretty good idea. I think it could work too. Skaven live underground all over the world, they could pop up anywhere, giving them many potential starting areas. The racial pairing, then, would be Order Skaven mercenaries vs. Destruction Skaven mercenaries. The only question I have, is this: would the lore allow enough leniency for Order to hire Skaven as mercenaries? I suppose that's the question that will answer whether this idea is probable or not.
1) skaven i feel would never side wih the order i's just against what they stand for(ie.a giant furball bearing the gift of death), and i dought skavent will have a healer class.I think that Skaven wil join destruction and mythic will say something like "the lizardmen joined the order to drive the skaven back" so they can compromise lore with the game.
( i play skaven)
According to my information on the lore and fluff, Lizardmen are an Order race -- a particularly alien one, but they are trying to enforce Order as the Old Ones saw it. The Skaven and Undead are Chaos races. It makes about as much sense to make them an allied set of races from the same Realm as it would to throw together, say, Empire, Dark Elves, and Greenskins. Possibly less, as I'm only passingly familiar with the lore. I do want to see Lizardmen and Skaven added, and wouldn't be surprised to see it... but it makes more sense to just add them to the pre-existing Order and Destruction realms.
Lizardmen would fight for Order, of course. Even the latest Army book says so. "The Final battle against Chaos is finally at hand" - Lord Mazdamundi
One of my hint sources told that first skaven introduction by EA would be shown during this and the lizardmen (if anyone haven´t noticed, lizardmen (2009) models have been added quite a lot to the miniatyre game, including new codexes etc.)
I hope the registeration thing gets fixed, coz my keys aren´t working, patcher login lags that skill as well..
Imo brining a 3rd realm would punch the exciting scale of the game way up, it would be like daoc in OF, when midgard is raiding Hibernias Relic, while the albs take their chance and storm to raid Midgards relic, or backattack midgard while their on the Hibernia relic
Ok, we have order which is made out of the empire dwarfs and high elves, then you have destruction made out of chaos greenskins and dark elves. If there were to be a third faction it would have to be the ancients, this would consist of the wood elves lizardmen, and a third human race. wood elves and lizardmen do not peculiarly like anybody but will protect there land no matter what the cost, i can see them teaming up to protect the old world if anything, which mythic would have to add in. but if anything a third faction would have to be wood elves lizardmen and a third human race because of the lore behind it all. yeah they would have to change around the maping systems, but i think mythic has the ability to do this
if lizardmen were added they wouldn't be on order or destruction, they would have to create a new realm. skaven and lizardmen wouldn't go together. they probably would be with wood elves
but probably not humans. maybe vampire counts or tomb kings